Harassment from Revadike
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BlackDraft

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Revadike

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Nao 尚

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Re: Harassment from Revadike
« Reply #2,  »
There's no way to block people because yes, the alternative is barter, and it's way too easy to block anyone just because you don't like one offer... And cut yourself from good potential trades.
Also, there aren't that many trades being done here. Not even a tenth of barter's traffic. So it's not a problem and I stand by this. 😅

BlackDraft

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Re: Harassment from Revadike
« Reply #3,  »
Translation:
"It's not a problem for me, so it's not a problem for you.
It's totally only a single offer and not every single offer he has ever sent - in addition to his general behavior beyond that.
You're a retard and might miss out on so many awesome rip-off attempts - sorry, trades - because you'd really decide to block people you're never going to trade with anyway. Don't worry, I won't let that happen.
There's this common problem on the internet: people you don't like. There's also a universally accepted solution for it: blocking them. I know better, though, so you'll be dealing with their shit for a while longer and you'll be happy about it."

If you don't want to add this most basic feature (which I didn't ask for anyway), that's one thing, but don't feed me this crap instead.

Pika! Pika!

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Re: Harassment from Revadike
« Reply #4,  »Last edited
Every platform makes its decisions based upon its own principles. This platform has distinctly different principles than Barter and each has its own advantages and disadvantages. Every user can decide whether the principles of a platform are acceptable to them or not......I do think there is much more to it than that.

The blocking of users for me has resulted in good and bad experiences at Barter. Probably on the whole I have had more good experiences than bad experiences with that (maybe 75% to 25%), but the underlying principle behind it has now enabled offer moderation and I have had only bad experiences with that and I am not even one of the people who got banned or warned about it. The question that comes up in my mind is what kind of new moderation can take place in the future based on that principle. So in that sense I personally think it is a good thing that principles remain fixed. If anything can go in regards to principles, everything probably will go.

Revadike

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Re: Harassment from Revadike
« Reply #5,  »
@BlackDraft

I hope I can make it up to you with good potential future trades! Again, my apologies for my past offers.

BlackDraft

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Re: Harassment from Revadike
« Reply #6,  »
Quote from Pika! Pika! on August 31st, 07:13 PM
Every platform makes its decisions based upon its own principles. This platform has distinctly different principles than Barter and each has its own advantages and disadvantages. Every user can decide whether the principles of a platform are acceptable to them or not......I do think there is much more to it than that.

The blocking of users for me has resulted in good and bad experiences at Barter. Probably on the whole I have had more good experiences than bad experiences with that (maybe 75% to 25%), but the underlying principle behind it has now enabled offer moderation and I have had only bad experiences with that and I am not even one of the people who got banned or warned about it. The question that comes up in my mind is what kind of new moderation can take place in the future based on that principle. So in that sense I personally think it is a good thing that principles remain fixed. If anything can go in regards to principles, everything probably will go.
Nobody's being blocked automatically. It's an optional feature - don't want it, don't use it.
How could one even have a "bad experience" with that? Just unblock the person again if you feel like it.
Or is it you, perhaps, who's blocked? Tough luck; you have no right to bother anyone against their will.

Same applies to the enforcement of offer fairness. If you don't want your incoming offers to be moderated, disable the intervention.
If you don't want your outgoing offers to be moderated - specifically, when interacting with people who have the feature turned on, mind you -, well... that makes one wonder. Are you sending offers so unfair that even the generous 100% profit that is allowed for you would be surpassed? I don't see why anybody should have to put up with that, especially considering the dozens of warnings and "last" chances that are given before a ban is actually given.

Adhering to principles means nothing, per se, as said principles can be flawed.
Who, exactly, is benefiting here? I hate merely seeing his name already and would rather permanently invalidate my extra games than trade with him. I will decline absolutely all of his offers, which cause me nothing but anger. Of course, that means sending them in the first place is a waste of time for him, too.
How about that? I start bugging you by sending fantastic offers like Revadike does ( https://lestrades.com/offer/25815/ ) every single day from now on and because we wouldn't want to go against this site's principles, you just have to accept that for as long as the website keeps up.

Finally, look at the post below yours.
I didn't ask him if we could maybe improve the quality of his offers in the future, pretty please, if at all possible.
I've told him to cease any and all communications with me. Full stop. Multiple times, even. And here he is yet again! In real life, I would have put this fucking freak under a restraining order already.
This is who and what you're defending (same applies to Nao 尚). Great principles, really.

Pika! Pika!

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Re: Harassment from Revadike
« Reply #7,  »
Quote from BlackDraft on September 1st, 07:02 PM
Quote from Pika! Pika! on August 31st, 07:13 PM
Every platform makes its decisions based upon its own principles. This platform has distinctly different principles than Barter and each has its own advantages and disadvantages. Every user can decide whether the principles of a platform are acceptable to them or not......I do think there is much more to it than that.

The blocking of users for me has resulted in good and bad experiences at Barter. Probably on the whole I have had more good experiences than bad experiences with that (maybe 75% to 25%), but the underlying principle behind it has now enabled offer moderation and I have had only bad experiences with that and I am not even one of the people who got banned or warned about it. The question that comes up in my mind is what kind of new moderation can take place in the future based on that principle. So in that sense I personally think it is a good thing that principles remain fixed. If anything can go in regards to principles, everything probably will go.
Nobody's being blocked automatically. It's an optional feature - don't want it, don't use it.
How could one even have a "bad experience" with that? Just unblock the person again if you feel like it.
Or is it you, perhaps, who's blocked? Tough luck; you have no right to bother anyone against their will.

Same applies to the enforcement of offer fairness. If you don't want your incoming offers to be moderated, disable the intervention.
If you don't want your outgoing offers to be moderated - specifically, when interacting with people who have the feature turned on, mind you -, well... that makes one wonder. Are you sending offers so unfair that even the generous 100% profit that is allowed for you would be surpassed? I don't see why anybody should have to put up with that, especially considering the dozens of warnings and "last" chances that are given before a ban is actually given.

Adhering to principles means nothing, per se, as said principles can be flawed.
Who, exactly, is benefiting here? I hate merely seeing his name already and would rather permanently invalidate my extra games than trade with him. I will decline absolutely all of his offers, which cause me nothing but anger. Of course, that means sending them in the first place is a waste of time for him, too.
How about that? I start bugging you by sending fantastic offers like Revadike does ( https://lestrades.com/offer/25815/ ) every single day from now on and because we wouldn't want to go against this site's principles, you just have to accept that for as long as the website keeps up.

Finally, look at the post below yours.
I didn't ask him if we could maybe improve the quality of his offers in the future, pretty please, if at all possible.
I've told him to cease any and all communications with me. Full stop. Multiple times, even. And here he is yet again! In real life, I would have put this fucking freak under a restraining order already.
This is who and what you're defending (same applies to Nao 尚). Great principles, really.
I have a 38% acceptance rate of incoming offers and 40% acceptance rate of outgoing offers at Barter with 1908 logged trades there with a Steam Trades reputation of +1155 to -0. It is good enough and above average. Sometimes a single experience can result in a block and then personally I think in hindsight it was not necessary and that good trades would otherwise still be possible. Admittedly I did get annoyed in particular by automated trades.....those were usually extremely bad.....some users sent out 0% chance of a deal bad offers.

In regards to the moderation of offers, I have had offers declined that were good enough, but the moderator did not always properly see what I was offering as sometimes part of the offer is in the text and the moderator does not read that or instances were a moderator makes a mistake about value. This then needs to be addressed in a post and then later on it is admitted that it was a mistake, but it is a highly bureaucratic process. I have also had incoming trades declined as a result of this moderation feature....I never selected the moderation feature and then I get lumped into this moderation feature, even though I have been able to manage for myself just fine all those years.....I had to then manually turn off the feature. All in all, it is highly bureaucratic and adds little. So no, I am not looking for 100% profit. I am more than fine with trading my games for fair value, not more or less, but I still run into major issues from this auto moderation.

Admittedly I can understand desiring a block feature, but also the reasons for not having it. I suppose the alternative here at Lestrades is leaving such incoming offers unanswered....like you said nobody has a claim to your time (a principle to which I fully agree), but that also implies nobody has the right to expect a response either. In all fairness I must admit that I think I did block Revadike at one point at Barter when automated offers were constantly sent out and I made it known that it was not a success for the receiving party, but I did have good relations with him regardless of those incidents, although also admittedly that was not the case with users like disbarras / kasiopedra (I probably felt similar to what you are experiencing).

I think it is great that Nao built this website and we also cannot make any claims to his time. He made a great contribution as it is. If there is to be a middle ground between blocking users and not being able to block users at all, then it might be something like a 'fade' feature....a kind of soft block where the 'faded' user can see that the other party has done that and that then the offers can still be sent, but no notification is being given and those incoming offers are put all the way at the bottom of one's offer page, so they do not clutter the page or are even visible unless one goes looking for them. Maybe that is perhaps a good intermediate feature and the 'faded' user then also in effect gets a sort of 'warning' by means of being faded, but can still try to do better in the future and thus restore the relation if so desired.

BlackDraft

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Re: Harassment from Revadike
« Reply #8,  »
Okay, if you don't think blocking would be necessary, don't do it. Or undo it later. Again, it's optional.
And if you don't think being blocked by somebody else would have been necessary, honestly, so what? The other person thinks differently and I really don't see the slightest reason why you should be able to override their decision.

Offer moderation works on an opt-out basis as the new users, towards which is this is primarily aimed at, would all be screwed out of their valuable items long before they even discover this feature. Some "people" sit there 24/7 hours a day with a multiple accounts (using scripts etc.) to rip them off as hard and fast as possible. I'm sure many inexperienced traders who have been protected by the moderators see more than only little value in it.
If they, however, don't, they're free to deactivate it (just live you've done) and no moderation will take place any more.
There are only two ways you could have issues with it:
1. You're sending offers to those very new users. Since there's apparently active moderation going on, they'll learn how the feature works in practice now and can then decide to keep it turned on or not. Done.
2. You're sending offers to people who have already decided they want to use it. Once more, I don't see the slightest reason why you should be able to override that choice.

As for your alternative suggestion, it would certainly be better than nothing, but actually I wasn't even asking him to implement anything new. I just wanted him to deal with one particular user who without any doubt must have gotten the message by now, but feels like he's above it all and free to do whatever he wants. I want him to leave me alone, but he doesn't care one bit.
All the general discussions aside, I fail to think of any justification for this and why he's allowed to continue being a pest while I simply have to deal with it.

Pika! Pika!

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Re: Harassment from Revadike
« Reply #9,  »Last edited
Quote from BlackDraft on September 2nd, 06:59 PM
There are only two ways you could have issues with it:
1. You're sending offers to those very new users. Since there's apparently active moderation going on, they'll learn how the feature works in practice now and can then decide to keep it turned on or not. Done.
2. You're sending offers to people who have already decided they want to use it. Once more, I don't see the slightest reason why you should be able to override that choice.
No, I have described exactly the items that I have an issue with and it is that without any hidden agenda, namely offers getting declined that were reasonable and having to spend extra time before it is acknowledged by Bartee and being lumped into its moderation for incoming offers when I had not selected it. As a matter of fact, I have even completed a trade with Revadike during the last month. I'll survive the Barter moderation....I just think those are bad design choices. At any rate, I think your issue is solved, albeit in a different way than you wanted. I doubt Revadike will send you new offers.

BlackDraft

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Re: Harassment from Revadike
« Reply #10,  »
It was turned on for everybody when the feature was newly added. You might not have liked that, but it was a one-off "incident" to introduce the whole thing.
You've said that you've turned it off, but "still run into major issues". These issues cannot be related to incoming offers. Or are you claiming your preferences are being ignored and incoming offers are still under moderation?

Assuming no, your problems must stem from outgoing offers being moderated. Thus, we're right back at that quote from me (unless somebody else's incoming offers are moderated despited having opted out, which I also doubt):
"1. You're sending offers to [...] very new users [who're still on the default setting and haven't actually turned it on themselves]. Since there's apparently active moderation going on, they'll learn how the feature works in practice now and can then decide to keep it turned on or not. Done. [Another one-off "incident", at most.]
2. You're sending offers to people who have already decided they want to use it. Once more, I don't see the slightest reason why you should be able to override that choice."
There's simply no third option and so your problems here are, well, yours. Again, just like with blocking, you don't get to nullify the other person's choice to keep moderation on.
I can see how mistakes are bound to happen given the huge number of offers every day, but if the receiving party of your offers wants the moderators' assistance anyway, that's simply it. What you see as bad design, they apparently think of as good.

Sure hope you're right with your last point, though.

AsChMR

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Re: Harassment from Revadike
« Reply #11,  »

Barter moderation will mess with your offers even if you or your offer recipient have the moderation turned off.  They are more intrusive than Revadike and Bartee mod is  hated/loved equally (I think is more the former). He likes suspending and bannig ppl just to show the power he has, will never accept and give apologies for making mistakes and will target and send traps so they can get rid of you.  The fact that many ppl are under Bartee's account devolves into you being bullied by multiple moderator accounts, but none of them will accept they are Bartee. NO MODERATION was the key when Barter was succesful, we all learned about prices and life the hard way, and now they want to impose price regulations in offers...... What they should have done is make a "press to continue" tutorial for new users before making or accepting offers if they wanted to make sure they know where to look for prices and stop messing with other users. You could go see for yourself in Barter Steam forum the many complaints not only from resellers but from many regular users, but they closed and deleted many of those posts, and banned those users.

BlackDraft

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Re: Harassment from Revadike
« Reply #12,  »
I've seen and laughed about those complaints plenty already. Good riddance to all of them.

Nao 尚

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Re: Harassment from Revadike
« Reply #13,  »
BlackDraft, I've had a look at the trade offer you reported, and that doesn't strike me as wholly unfair. In general when someone sends a trade offer, they'll have a 'fair trade' in mind, and then they'll add a few alternative items that they feel are more to their advantage, in case the other party would feel differently about their value. For instance in your case, he's offering 2 unbundled (AFAIK) games, in exchange for a game from a recent Humble Bundle (Callisto Protocol). Then he added more games that are unbundled, just in case you wanted to part with them. Of course, sending quasi-identical offers within a short delay is frowned upon, and offering unbundled games you didn't pay for (which is likely the case here: beta testing etc) is also something I wouldn't recommend.
I think the trading system as it is is flawed, of course, but if I ever replaced it with my original plans[1], you will probably consider even worse. So for now, it remains the way it is.

Either way, if Reva keeps bothering you, I'm sure he'll understand that I'll consider it as a provocation given that it has now been established we're aware of your mini-feud, and I'll have no choice but temporarily ban him from LT's. My apologies if it ever happens, as I've never done this and don't ever want to. ;-)
 1. Token-based single-item trades, where you simply post your keys in a vault, sell them automatically for X tokens, and then use these tokens to buy other games from the platform, with zero money transactions from either side, and no waiting times.

BlackDraft

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Re: Harassment from Revadike
« Reply #14,  »
Thanks, that's good to hear.

I have to comment on the fairness, though. The games he was offering were not just in some bundle but given away for free. Currently going for about €1 on the gray market.
To ask for God of War, The Last of Us, Kerbal Space Program 2 (all between €20 and €30 at the time) and even The Legend of Korra (delisted; €250) in return is nothing but a blatant rip-off attempt of the highest magnitude. And you can't tell me he didn't know exactly what he was doing.
On Barter.vg ( https://barter.vg/u/48e/t/ ), you can even see that he grabbed at least ten copies of each. Greedy as can be.
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